Founded By Women Episode Transcripts
AJ Thomas — Career-Forager, Mentoring At-Risk Youth, The Communi-team, Activating Questions, Life as a First Generation Immigrant, Raising a Daughter Who Builds, and Much More!
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Return to show notes for Episode #003.
AJ Thomas 0:00
When you're so vulnerable and you show up in such an authentic way, you give others permission to do it. That's what inspires me.
Margie Chuang 0:07
Hi everyone, this is Margie Chuang and welcome to Founded By Women, a podcast about inspirational women building inspirational things. Whether they’re founding companies, blazing a new career path, or reinventing themselves, I learn about what inspires women to start their own journeys, what keeps them motivated, and what it's really like to build things that bring them joy. This episode features AJ Thomas. AJ is the founder of Infuse Program Foundation and the founder and chief explorer at BrainCandy Labs, powered by Women In Technology International. She also works at X, the moonshot factory, leading the human experience design team.
These roles have allowed AJ to be a key contributor to developing talent for the future. A lot of what fuels AJ's interests and passions intersect at bridging the gaps in talent, culture and career. The result of what she does moves people and organizations forward to create a future of infinite possibilities. AJ is a mother to two amazing kids, Ava and Jett and resides in Silicon Valley with her family. Without further ado, please enjoy my wide ranging conversation with AJ Thomas.
AJ, welcome to the show!
AJ Thomas 1:18
Hi, Margie. How are you?
Margie Chuang 1:20
I'm doing good today. How are you doing?
AJ Thomas 1:42
Doing good.
Margie Chuang 1:23
Thank you so much for being here. I'd like to start by asking you about your nonlinear career path. Can you tell us about what it was like for you to get into the human resources space, the technology industry, and then eventually founding your own nonprofit organization?
AJ Thomas 1:42
Yeah, I typically tell the story of my nonlinear career path as exactly that. It's probably a bunch of concentric circles that come together. So, to put a blanket around why it's so nonlinear: I didn't realize this at the time I was going through my career, but I definitely realized that as I look back that I've been more of a forger of experiences versus more of a hunter of whatever that next step is going to be.
For me, I actually started out my first job, which is not even on my LinkedIn because it was more than 15 years ago, it was 20 years ago, actually, I was selling jewelry that led me to a sales position. I started out doing b2b sales and retail sales at a company called T Mobile, which was amazing at the time, the forefront of the BlackBerry wave. And then I went from selling these items and consumer goods to selling opportunities to folks as I went into, naturally, what was recruiting. The funny part was one of my T-Mobile customers had recruited me to join his recruiting firm. Very early on, I had no idea what I was getting into. I didn't even know what recruiting was. The only thing I knew about recruiting was that it was recruiting for the military, because a lot of my family and friends were in the military. But soon came to find out it was really about bringing opportunity to others, which then led me to other amazing opportunities.
I got to work for really large organizations like Addeco and Iron Mountain. Again, at Adecco, was recruited by one of the clients that I was trying to recruit for. And he and I maintained a really amazing kind of just phone relationship, kept talking with each other, and pretty soon he called me and said, "hey, I might have a role for you", to which I pursued putting together different profiles of candidates that I had ready for them, if they were ready. And he said, "No, it's actually a role for you if you want to apply.”
And I took my hand into HR operations and went from there, managed large projects, cross functional organization called Iron Mountain, and then went to a small company, in Telecom, in HR, at a company called Infinera, who gave me my first shot really. I was putting together the HR shared services there. And my VP of HR said, "I think you're getting bored in these operational roles". And, he kicked me out of HR, not for anything that I was doing illegal or anything like that, but he kicked me out because he said, "I think there's another amazing opportunity you can try".
I went into the customer support and product engineering world and then spent a few years in product. Then, had my hand over at a startup IPO for my previous VP of HR came and recruited me to come in and do that and have a fantastic opportunity to help build Nimble Storage. And then, once that journey closed down and I established many things there, I discovered a real estate technology firm called Ten-X. And I got to work under some really amazing people there and some really amazing teams. And I soon went into kind of the chief HR role, head of HR role, over at Auction.com, when Ten-X and auction.com split.
And then, I'm now in my new opportunity, heading up what's called the human experience design team. So, very interesting career path, very nonlinear and throughout that, I did have that parallel path of my nonprofit organization. So, I was working the whole time I was doing that as well, because I was looking to see what kind of mentorship programs are out there. It was in a season during my career when I was working at Iron Mountain where I wanted to give back a little bit more.
I, myself, am a first generation immigrant. And I was really looking to see how it could serve that community and Infuse Program was born out of that, as an experiment to try and see what that could look like. And again, foraging for those experiences, discovered an amazing community of administrators and teachers and educators in Eastside San Jose. And we decided to start up initiative to help at-risk youth become entrepreneurs in nine weeks. So, they use a lot of my technology contacts to build the adjunct faculty to put that together. And then, our educators came together with that. And then at the end of the season, where we were doing a lot of this training, education and experiential learning with engineers and product people, finance folks and marketing folks in the valley, we would go to places like Google, Microsoft, Brocade, Box, Facebook. And the kids would have the opportunity to present and pitch their products, as you would if you were pitching to a bunch of venture capitalists. So, it was really amazing to do that and do my job at the same time, because I saw it as fuel, to get the connections I needed for that adjunct faculty and build that community. Very nonlinear, very different.
Margie Chuang 6:38
Thank you for sharing all of that. I want to circle back to the forging aspect of your career. With Infuse, this wasn't the first time that you've experimented in an unfamiliar space. During your career path, there was a time where you were asked for a large company to build an international call center in London. And then for Infuse, like you just mentioned, that's a lot of people with the faculty and having the high schoolers pitch to actual VCs. So, the ask in that part is a difficult thing, especially when you don't know anyone in that particular space. How do you go about the ask? And more specifically, what steps did you take to ask people for help?
AJ Thomas 7:22
Yeah. For those that know me very well, I tend to always go in with the assumptive close. And the reason why is because I think anything is possible and "no" just probably means maybe it's not right now, but it's whatever the next opportunity is going to look like. I would be lying if I told you I knew exactly the steps for me to get there. Sometimes it just starts with you being curious, right?
Being a forger in your career is also being curious: saying yes to opportunities you sometimes don't even research, learning a lot, failing a lot, running into a ton of walls. Certainly when I was younger in my career, I was very confident in things that I didn't know about. And I found it as an opportunity to learn about it. I didn't think that you had to be the seasoned professional to play the game, or get in there. But every conversation you had, I think the main connection for me, in any situation I'm in, is always just getting curious around what's possible.
It doesn't always have to be, “get curious around what's the exact answer”, but it's really about getting curious around, okay, that's not possible, but then what is? And then, how do we build on top of that? And so that, for me, I think has been the framework that I've continuously used to continue to build things, whether it's career wise, personal, professional, etc. And it served me very well, because it also helps me look out for what is that next best question. I think at this point, I can say I'm more concerned with really getting it right than being right. And sometimes getting it right means you're going to run into a wall a few times.
Margie Chuang 8:54
How do you retain the information that you learn? You're bouncing around to all these different spaces, these different industries. How do you retain that information? Or, how do you act on that information?
AJ Thomas 9:06
So, I have this thing that's called the activating question. It can be a very hard question to ask. It's probably 99% of the time open ended. As far as retaining information, I think one of the things that I know is a strength of mine, that I've recently been very aware of, that has really helped me get even more curious in the things I'm currently working on, is this aspect of the communi-team. And there's a community and then there's a communi-team, and I often like to be on communi-teams where people are playing for the team and just not on the team, if that makes sense.
Because, I think playing for a team means you're aware of all of the team members that are there, that are contributing. You see them, you tap into their strengths, you help coach, you have the hard conversations. If you're just playing on a team, you're happy to wear the jersey and then I'll see you on game day kind of thing - see on the practice court, etc. But, there's not that empathy that's put into almost building out how you might want to support each other.
I don't remember a lot of things, but when it comes to retaining, I do take notes, I have several notebooks and frameworks of where I'm writing things down. But, it's more of a sense of writing it down helps me remember, but then having a conversation with somebody . . . I don't take that for granted at all, because those folks help hold you accountable to the things that you've said. So that, I think is very important. Even just saying, "Hey, I'm thinking about this thing. Can you check in with me in a couple of weeks, and just guide me on whether or not, even just asked me an activating question of how is that specific thing you talked about two weeks ago going?".
So, I typically ask for help from my communi-team to hold me accountable, because you can't possibly remember everything. But that I think, has worked for me very well, too, because it helps me connect back with them, and relate with them and have a sense of purpose in having a dialogue. And it helps me get curious around how I might be able to add value for the folks on that communi-team as well. Those for me and sticky notes. By the way, I get those for Christmas - lots of post-its at my house.
Margie Chuang 11:08
Girl after my own heart, I just actually bought a bunch of sticky notes, so there we go. I agree. I've learned that the more curious you are, the more comfortable you are asking questions and to actually say the words, "I don't know". I don't know the answer and being comfortable enough to admit that and learn about it. And to your point of having that conversation with someone - people remember stories, right? And to have maybe an accountability partner, and it doesn't have to be the same partner each time, but just to have someone open up that dialogue and keep talking to you about it.
AJ Thomas 11:12
Yeah, it wasn't always that way by the way, Margie. That was one of the things I had to learn coming through and building some of these things. I find if I'm particularly very passionate about something and the word "I". I am particularly passionate about something that's going to happen. But what I've also found later on in my career, especially now it's very important, is when you're building things together, and you're playing for the team. It's important to just be able to hold each other accountable, but also be able to pass the ball.
AJ Thomas 11:45
I was always like, "Oh, I'll shoot it, it's fine," "I'll do this, I'll do that, I'll do that". And there's not . . . you don't get a lot of fulfillment out of it, because they do say it's very lonely at the top. And learning that earlier on in my sales days, where you're out for yourself, your quota, your percentage of achievement, your OTE, quote, unquote - I was really able to practice a lot of that when I went into my operations roles, especially in the product roles that I was in where you are a thread in a very vast fabric.
And it's very important for you to just be aware that there are other folks that are coming into that as well. And so, that, I think is very fulfilling, because when I was out for myself just doing it all for that, for me, for myself, for my quota, etc., it didn't leave you very fulfilling. So, those were some lessons that I learned that I actually transitioned into when I was starting to build Infuse was there was a lot of "I don't know", there was a lot of, "Why does it work that way?". There was a lot of that kind of uncertainty that was more foraging for what was that next connection that needed to be made.
Margie Chuang 13:21
For Infuse, there's this mix, and please let me know if I'm incorrect in any of these facts - for the program itself, you have this ecosystem map that you created for the high school kids. To be honest, when I was looking at I was like, "Oh! I could use this as an adult". Why high school? Why inner city high school students and why was it important for you to help give them both the business and the life skills?
AJ Thomas 13:49
Yeah, so two things: number one, I was fortunate enough to work with some very awesome educators, Paul Moradkhan in Eastside San Jose School District, Mary Metz at the time, who was the wonderful Biotech Academy Coordinator. Believe it or not, I actually answered the ad for mentorship to get into Andrew Hill High School through a newspaper ad back in the day. It wasn't too long ago, by the way, everyone. So, it was really interesting coming into that because again, I didn't know it was going to be high school.
My thing was, I want to go and mentor people. I want to be able to give back and just mentor somebody. Then it became, okay, now there might be a possibility for me to connect the things I'm learning. I thought, why do the things I'm learning in my product roles or my operations roles or my leadership roles, aren't we teaching that in the high schools? And I also found out that the drop off rate is pretty significant at the junior year in high school, especially in the sciences. As I started talking to more entrepreneur friends around that time, because I got really involved with a few different kind of startups that were starting up around that time. I think it was back in 2008-2009 timeframe. And I felt like there was a lot of things that the young entrepreneurial crowd was still starting to learn that this quote always comes to me, "If you want to work on the future, you really have to work with the future".
And high school was really interesting, because especially in East Side, San Jose, you were getting a lot of folks that were either repeating senior year, these are the kind of kids that we have the wonderful opportunity to spend time with. But, they were also dealing with a lot of things at home, being in underrepresented groups or being in communities that were underserved. And so, I really took heart to that. Because, number one, a lot of the kids that we work with were kids from communities of color, kids that were probably first generation immigrant and within their families were first to go to college. So, I resonated with that community a little bit.
Here in the valley, we have the 101 freeway, I always talk about this. There's the 101 freeway and on the west side of the 101, it's all the amazing school districts and all the funding, really amazing stuff happening. And on the east side of the 101, was very different as far as like demographic and communities. And I was straddling these two worlds: the benefits of being on the west side of the 101, where you get a lot of these amazing resources, in my professional career where I was working in tech, and then the east side of the 101: where it was like some of the parents of the kids that were going through this program, and by the way, I had parents who would say, "What is this thing? I don't know what this thing is? Technology. Okay, that's great, but the kid just needs to finish high school and then we'll figure out what's next.". So, that was really interesting.
Going into that community. And specifically, being in high school was not something I woke up and I said, "Hey, let's do this.". I actually didn't incorporate until two years into the practice, after I had a really amazing conversation with a mentor of mine who said, "Hey, you may have something here where you can actually raise funds for these kids." That's when we went into that nonprofit route, because when they would win those competitions, 100% of the funds that we were raising actually went directly to the kids for their scholarships. So there's junior year, it went to their scholarships that they could disperse after they graduate. So, they had something to look forward to.
Margie Chuang 17:12
So, it wasn't just a one lump sum of money. It was, we are investing in your future.
AJ Thomas 17:17
That's right. Yeah, so think of it like a startup pitch, where you go in there with your term sheet. And if we do these milestones, we'll give you a percentage share of whatever. So, we were going on that sort of metaphor where it was like, okay, over a period of time you hit these milestones, like you win this competition, you get your $5,000, $10,000 scholarship, you enroll in a school, you fill out your FAFSA, you have all of these different milestones, but at the end of it your senior year, you're able to get all of that money to reinvest back in yourself. And again, was that intentional on my part going every single step of the way? Lots of questions, asked a lot of people, went to different conferences with teachers. I went to education conferences, as a non-teacher, just to feel the pain, what our educators feel. It was a forging moment, for sure.
Margie Chuang 18:03
How many kids graduated through your program, AJ?
AJ Thomas 18:06
So, the program was probably about 600 kids. We spend about 10 years putting that piece together until it was fully absorbed by the school district. I was, I think my second kid at the time, were Paul Moradkhan was basically like, "Take the year, have your baby.". Because I remember our first year I was pregnant with my first child. And two weeks after she was born, we had this, we call it The Symposium of Ideas, we had held it at Microsoft.
That one was a funny story, because I didn't even know where we were going to hold it. I remember putting a Facebook post and said, "Does anyone know anyone at Microsoft? I want to host an event for some kids that we're teaching.". And I got a couple of replies for people. I got some tags for people. And then I just basically said, "Okay, we're two months away, I am just gonna reach out to somebody on LinkedIn.". I believe I reached out to somebody on LinkedIn, got connected with a few of the folks that ran some of the different programs. And then a friend of mine knew somebody that worked at Microsoft that was going to be able to sponsor us and they had Spark Microsoft Programs for the young entrepreneurs. I just followed that trail and said, "Okay, who do I talk to? What do we do?"
To the day where we were there, I didn't even have any idea like where to park, all of that. I'm sure the kids and the parents had no idea. It was also one of the first VC pitch night events that Microsoft had with a live band, because my husband also had a band and I said, you should get involved, this would be great. My daughter was two weeks old the first year we did The Symposium of Ideas, and she was there with me. And four years later, actually, she welcomed the community of over 300 people to the Google campus. We hosted there, so it's just come full circle.
Margie Chuang 19:38
Yeah, let's jump to that real quick and talk about your experience of not only just helping to run the company, but then physically bringing your baby to a symposium. Tell me about the experience and what were you feeling physically and emotionally during that time?
AJ Thomas 19:42
Yeah, I was feeling like, "Wow, I should have bought this dress two sizes bigger, because I can't breathe. I remember being very excited for the kids, it was the first time I actually would see their parents. And we did some iterations as we built the program years later, where we essentially would also do a parent night before the program kick started. It was great, because a lot of trust that was built within that community, with the parents as well, and the teachers and everyone, so that was amazing. But it was like giving birth twice, especially because it was our first child. So my husband, he always says, "I actually am a little bit scared whenever you take vacation, because I feel like you're going to start a bunch of companies with your friends, this is kind of what you do".
But, it was such a great feeling of, wow, elation, and just pride and seeing that the kids when we first met them in the program, it was around January. And then we meet for nine weeks from January to June. And the program would happen around end of May, early June. And the difference that you see in the kids, the confidence that you see in them was amazing. I still have those rebirth moments every day, because most of the kids that went through this program have graduated college. Now, I have a few of them that I still mentor that I still talk to that are just absolutely amazing human beings. And it's just been awesome.
But the feeling is one of you're creating something. It was hard too, because postpartum was part of my story with my first one. So I didn't quite adjust as well as I wished I would have during that time. And I buried a lot of myself in work to get through some of those pieces, but never forgot what the vision was for, which was how do we level that playing field for these kids?
Margie Chuang 21:56
If you're comfortable sharing, what kind of postpartum symptoms or things were you trying to bury? And did you have that also with your second child?
AJ Thomas 22:07
No, I did not have it with my second child. And I think it has something to do with having a girl? I don't know, I was really emotional when I had Ava. But it was a lot of self doubt that I had to get over. There were times where I didn't actually even want to see my daughter. And I just really wanted to get into the work. It was very hard for Mike and I, because we were very young parents when we had her. And we didn't know, I didn't know what postpartum was until I had the conversation. And I actually didn't know I had gone through postpartum until probably she was two years old. Because then, I started reading I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I think this is it!" And talking to, you know, my doctors, they're like, "Yeah, it's probably what you had gone through".
But I've learned a lot of it with work and whatnot. So again, foraging into my career, because the second time around was very different. I was very aware of all of these things and these triggers and whatnot. I think this was the year when Paul Moradkhan said, "Your son is coming". He came and visited me New Year's Eve and said, "Hey, look, you're about to have a baby this year", because very early, when I was pregnant, I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm about to have another baby". And he's all, "Okay. All right. That's awesome. Let's go through the curriculum. Let's figure out how we embed the program. And we can work through that". But, it was really good because I had a plan like the next time. Yeah, but the first time was, it was incredibly hard. I was depressed. There was a lot of that kind of self doubt that was going through my head during that time.
Margie Chuang 23:35
How did you work through that? You said that you didn't realize until she turned two, there are some times where you may not have even wanted to spend time with her or see her? And so when did that change for you? Or how did that change for you?
AJ Thomas 23:45
Yeah, so that changed for me when she was about one and a half years old. She started talking. I laugh, because my husband says you've got to be really patient with young kids. And I probably am not the most patient person. I traveled when I was pregnant with my son. I was on a plane at 36 weeks and had him at 38 weeks. But I think for me, it was, I would say just the ability to breathe. Like it's something as simple as that. Just breathe. What is happening right now? And again, that aspect of communi-team came in because I was very blessed. We were both very blessed with having the amazing supportive friends and family, my parents, his parents, my grandparents who even came into the tour of duty to take care of her when she was little.
Because I was going through that, I actually went back to work, like five weeks after I had her. But I also said if I'm going to go to work, and she's a part of me, I'm bringing her to work. So, I would bring it to work and have her little carseat under my desk. And yeah, she was such a good baby.
Margie Chuang 24:49
I mean, I know it's a different time now, but what did your colleagues say? What did your work say? Where'd your boss say,
AJ Thomas 24:54
Oh, they all took turns wanting to hold her. Again, I don't mind the rules. I break the rules on that front but being a mom you would never know now, but it's probably my most important work of my life. And a lot of the things that I build are also to help her see that things are possible. Fast forward to now, which probably was two years ago, I actually snuck her into a woman's conference.
Margie Chuang 25:18
Good for you.
AJ Thomas 25:20
I did because I didn't have a ticket for her, but I also didn't have anyone who could watch her that day. And it was summer vacation, was the first week of summer and Mike was working. And I was like, "I did say I was going to be home, but I have this conference ticket. Okay, you're coming with me". She attended her first woman's conference. And now her and I are actually working together with our new communi-team and group on this new initiative, which is another iteration of Infuse, but partnered with Women In Technology International called BrainCandy Labs. She's actually the little media host interviewing a bunch of these women in science or young ladies in science. It all comes full circle - like I said, my career, my life is nonlinear, but they're all concentric circles that build upon each other.
Margie Chuang 25:58
Yeah wow, I love that story. Okay, so tell me a little bit more about your and your daughter's work with Women In Technology International and your initiative with BrainCandy Labs.
AJ Thomas 26:10
So that work again, spontaneously born out of not having to watch my daughter during the day during that conference. She came and got super inspired and actually I have a drawing of her's when they asked in her first grade class, what do you want to be when you grow up and she said an astrophysicist. Until that day, I didn't even know how to spell astrophysicist, let alone say it, know that there were syllables. And it was really interesting going through and building that was again, I didn't go out and say I was gonna go do something else. I just felt like there was a need.
And having worked in the high schools for a decade and knowing some of the kids and all of that. Some of the kids were having children as well. And I was on my second child at the time. It was like, oh, man, I think it would be really awesome to just see the wonder in her eyes when she was going around. She went to the career fair portion. And lots of tchotchke from different companies and whatnot. Of course, that was like kind of Candyland for the kids like, "I get a free pen, really? Wow, I get sticky note?" There were people handing out capes and Lego building stuff. And I said, "Oh, no, this is not the real world, my dear. This is just a career fair". But what I think she took away from that was the possibility of what women can do in technology, because there were lots of different jobs around the coding and leadership. And I think JPL was there, there was a lot of really amazing examples of scientists and analysts and data science and stuff like that, that she had never been exposed to, but she really loved.
She loves math. So I said, "Oh, that might be really interesting to poke around with". The initiative was called mini-Women In Technology at first and again, we pivoted just this last year. But she said, "Hey, mom, I'm curious". That word just gets me. I said, "Okay, what are you curious about?" So she's like, "Are there other people I can ask about how they became science people or astrophysicists and stuff like that?" And they said, "Yes, there are so many of them". She said, "Can you introduce me to a few people? I'd love to do a little show".
And at that time, her godmother had gotten her this iPad. And there's film of her from when she's four or five, six years old, like two hours, one hour of her just doing a show with her Barbie dolls and playing with that and the calculator and stuff like that. So, I knew she always wanted to do something around that area. I said, "Oh, that's a cool idea". And again, see this is where curiosity - she asked that question. And I'm like, "Oh, maybe we can help do that". And so, I talked to the President of WITI, David Leighton, around this idea. I said, "Hey, we attended your conference last year. It would be really interesting for me to talk to a few people" that he got me connected to somebody else. I said, "Well, who do you know?" Next thing we knew, we were filming this whole thing at VMware, which is actually on the BrainCandy Lab's site with her and Emily Chang, who is the Chief Transformation Officer over at VMware. And then, she absolutely nailed it.
I didn't even know who was going to film it, by the way, I texted one of my friends and I said, "I know you run a video media company, could you come and help us just for a day and see what that looks like?" And then I called one of my best girlfriends, her name is Cindy Dulay. And I'm the dreamer of the both of us, and she's operational taskmaster, and then from there, it just turned into something we didn't know it was gonna turn into. Because then a year after that, we were presenting at a keynote speech at the WITI Summit in 2019. Our initiative called mini-WITI, which then pivoted to BrainCandy Labs, because we thought BrainCandy Labs, is a little bit more alluring to young people. But yeah, again, the communi-team came out in droves, all driven by a curious question.
And now, she just got done actually in June, co-hosting a global kids conference online, which was BrainCandy Labs talking to amazing people, amazing young women in science: Emily Calandrelli, Jordan Herod, Jade from Up and Atom, Alyssa Carson, just some really amazing, young people that were inspiring. So, it doesn't always have to be some executive or woman executive.
Curiosity kind of takes you through different paths, but then that led us to targeting, "Okay, could we segment? Even go younger than high school?" And that's where we're at right now is pivoting and iterating on that, pulsing on that. And we have some really great partners that we're working like Cindy Lake over at Blank Page Studios and all the different pieces that we're using to build that out, one brick at a time.
Margie Chuang 30:17
Yeah, good for her, good for you. I'm inspired by her, like you said, it's come full circle. There is something, even as adult women now for us, there are not enough stories about women going through this path - whatever path it is that they're going on. Everyone's story is different. I love that at such a young age, she's cultivating, she's building her own communi-team. And to also teach young girls and young boys that you have a voice, you can see someone up there that's like you is really important to see at a young age.
I'm going to pivot a little bit, because since we are talking about your daughter, and we are talking about having that voice and seeing someone who is like you, hearing someone like you. You had sent me an audio conversation that your daughter had given you permission to; you and asked her very kindly if you could record your conversation. And I'm gonna take a look real quick at my notes here.
So, it was this conversation that you're having with your daughter and I'll let you walk through it. But, the moment that stood out to me, which I texted you about, was about five minutes in and your daughter said,
Ava Astro 31:27
"Voices can be heard, but lives can't be brought back".
Margie Chuang 31:31
She's nine.
AJ Thomas 31:32
Yes.
Margie Chuang 31:33
I got the chills listening to that. If she's okay and you're okay with it - I'm happy to post it in your show notes. Tell me a little bit about that conversation. What sparked it? And then we can go from there.
AJ Thomas 31:43
Yeah. So, what sparked that conversation, again, this is term of curiosity and foraging. I think it was such a heavy day, because it was that Memorial Day weekend with the murder of George Floyd and what was happening not only in our communities, but across the nation and the response to it and whatnot. And we actually had to stop watching - my kids call Lester Holt, Uncle Lester, because we watch him every night at 6:30 Pacific on NBC. And we had to stop watching Uncle Lester for a while because it was just getting too much for them. And her and I had a really interesting conversation.
I've always exposed the kids to things that some parents are like, "Why would you let them watch that? Help them keep their innocence and whatnot". And it's, you know, they still can, but it's about also having those conversations early on. I would never put my two year old in front of a movie like, The Hate U Give, for example. But when Ava was six, we watched it together. I was particularly very moved by it. And the thing that we focus on a lot is the kids, like what is the reaction, what actually happens? And The Hate U Give is an amazing novel by Angie Thomas, no relation. An amazing novelist, Angie Thomas, actually wrote this around police brutality and the generational aspects of racism and how it passes down the generation because of the environment that we're surrounded in.
We were about to go to bed and Ava was just she was also very angry. I said, "What's wrong with you? Are you okay?" She said, "I just don't want to watch the news anymore. I can't believe that happen. Why would people do that?" She just had all these questions. And I said, "Ava, can we record this conversation?", because I felt like there was something happening in the world that was very different that I wanted to have this record for when she grew up, like, listen to how your inner child was questioning these things and working after it. And I ended up just pressing record on the phone. And you probably heard from the very getgo, I was pretty pissed off. I was like, "Well, what do you think about it? What do you want to know about it? Why do you want to talk about this?
And you know, what happened then, it was like a softening of my heart around, wow, if we can just capture the energy of these children . . .
AJ Thomas 33:49
What do you hope will be different in the future?
Ava Astro 33:52
I really want people to change. It's not black or white. It's people.
AJ Thomas 34:00
She's big around voices being heard, especially having a mom who most of my life, most of my professional career was also termed as, "Oh my gosh, she talks so much. She's always talking. She's always taken up the room". And I have to tell her, "Look, it's okay to take up space. Learn to step up, but also, step back, because it's a lesson I have learned. I continue to step up. And you also have to learn to step back and give people the room". And I think it's better for her to learn that now than when she's 26 when I learned it.
And so this wonderful conversation just came out of that, that really poked the veil around this BrainCandy Labs idea, because that conversation in itself was brain candy for her. She loved talking about that. And she loved being asked the questions and no question, no answer was wrong. It's just how she was thinking about that profound moment where you talked about, hey, voices can be heard, but lives can't be brought back. She had a few of those in that recording where she also said, I don't understand the whole racism piece. She had said something around going to the beach, tanning - everyone's a different color. What? You going to arrest everybody for being a different color?
Margie Chuang 35:04
Yeah, the other thing that struck me during that conversation, Ava was so calm, very soft spoken, very confident in what she was saying -the way she was articulating and clearly thinking out loud. At one point, she even said, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about that right now. And it gives you such pause, again, what we talked about earlier on in our conversation where it's okay to say that it's okay to teach your children that's okay to say, "Can you come back to me on that? I actually do have some thoughts, but I just don't have them right now".
AJ Thomas 35:34
Yeah, I think we lose a lot of it also as like women in the workplace. We're always challenged to build things, ship things, deliver things, whether it's our thought, and then somebody takes it. And if we were more okay to say, "You know, what, I don't know,” and let it go there, something beautiful actually happens. And it's not about being right. And I hope this next generation, a lot of the things with Infuse, with BrainCandy Labs, with how I'm being super intentional with my kids. And I can't take full credit for this because my husband's absolutely amazing. Yeah, if it were up to me, I'd just be yelling the whole time. But he's just, he taught me the value of you have to reason with your kids, the same way that you might want to be reasoned with as well, of course, translated in the language that they know. But if you show them that, they'll show it to others. And she showed it to me that night, when we had that conversation and many nights.
I can show you different blueprints that we have. We have a whiteboard that my husband and my father-in-law actually installed in our loft upstairs, where Ava and I basically spent a weekend - we went out to lunch, our favorite place, Din Tai Fung, and came back after dim sum. And we plan to start a school together one day. And so, things like that, where you just allow them to dream a little bit, even if it's not right, who cares? They're gonna come back to that, they're gonna know what it feels like, and then when they're presented with the opportunities, what I love about this is when you work systemically way earlier on with kids, they remember these things, they're are shaped by these things. And while it might not be the immediate gratification of, I helped that kid do this, it's also very rewarding to see how maybe one little moment, I mean we never know what that looks like. I hope the 600 kids, there's hundreds of thousands of moments they're creating for others.
But, that's really the heart of everything, you know why I build, why I continue to even build and knock it down as well, because you're not gonna assess it, and go, "Eeh, maybe it's not that great", just kick it down and see. And so, the power of, "I don't know", and "How will you know?" question that follows it.
She sent me this text the other day with this, I don't even know if it's a meme, or it's a quote. It was words in a square box. And it said something, it says, "Certainty kills wonder". And I was like, oh, wow, that's so good. How many times in my life have I been certain and not relishing in the power of the, "I don't know"? . . . that I've killed my own wonder.
Margie Chuang 37:58
Yeah, she's so your child because one of the things you were on your website, and I think it goes along with what we're talking about right now - on your website, you wrote, "I view failure as an opportunity to gain momentum and to progress". So, let's talk about mistakes, let's talk about failures, because it hurts like hell when it happens, when you fall, when you fail . . . it's like fetal position. But, like you mentioned, the progress, the growth, the evolution that comes from that failure can be something really special, really profound, could change your life. Can you tell me about a time that you may have been challenged or failed? And what came out of that experience?
AJ Thomas 38:35
Yeah, gosh, so many stories around this, back when I was little as well. There's many stories that I got to think about. One poignant one for me was having this ideal outlook that I would help live this American dream and do this thing. It's actually a really interesting story. And maybe we get to the heart of that question by sharing a little bit.
So, I did not naturalize as a US citizen. I think I told us first your first generation immigrant family came here, immigrated from the Philippines. I actually was born in Kuwait. I was raised by my grandparents in the Philippines from the time I was two months old to eight years old. So, a lot of my formidable years were spent with my grandpa and my grandma and my aunt and uncle who raised me down there. And I like to say, when I moved to the United States, that whole support system was gone for me.
Margie Chuang 39:30
Sorry, AJ, how old were you?
AJ Thomas 39:31
I was eight years old when I moved up here. And two years later, my grandparents would come and follow me here in the United States. But we went through some really interesting times as a family trying to get our green cards and whole immigration thing was the life that I lived. I remember 16 years old in high school, my friends were driving, getting their permits, getting their work permit. And being Asian, my parents would always say your studies are the most important thing, do your study, do your study, do our study, etc.
I actually did not find out I was undocumented, that I couldn't do the things that I needed to do like go to college and drive and do all of these things until it was really late. It was probably about middle of my senior year. It was a really sad moment going through that, I won't get into the details. But it wasn't until years later, after I'd gone through my first marriage and now married with Michael, three years into being married with Mike, I then decided to naturalize as a US citizen. It was really hard. For me, I think going through that moment . . . because there's a moment in there where you walk into this amazing room, this community center, it was at the Campbell Community Center. So many amazing cultures, there's so much hope in the room. Obama was in office during those times.
There was a lot of people, probably about 376 people that were coming to naturalize on that specific day. Family was there, on the top mezzanine. I remember walking in, I see the rows of chairs with the little book of the US Constitution on the chair, your certificate of your naturalization is there, just a bunch of stuff that it's kinda like onboarding for America. Right? Welcome to this country! You've been part of it for the last three decades, but here are all the things you need to know. There's a letter from President Barack Obama at the time, and I was so happy I was like, "This is awesome. My in-laws were up in the mezzanine, my husband, my daughter was there. And man, I sat in my seat and they said, we got to get out because we had our envelope of things like our old work authorization, our green cards, all of that. They said, "you got to take that envelope and you got to drop it into this black box". I was like, "What? Does anybody know what it took for me to get this?"
And yeah, there were people that are like, yeah, drop it in there and get in my seat, gonna swear in. I kept going to the back of the line, back in the line, and it was like a really interesting symbolism of I didn't want to let that go. Right, this is supposed to be the American dream, like okay, but it was papers, bunch of papers in an envelope. But with the symbol of what those papers were in the years of heartache that my parents went through, the years of not being able to realize the dreams and wanting to realize when I was young, it just, I felt like all of that was in vain, super fail, forget it. This is, this is crazy. I'm not doing this. I actually thought that, I said, "I don't think I want to do this. Like I have to let all of this go? I can still work. I still have another few years before I can do this".
And I remember hearing my daughter. Again, she's like a reoccurring theme in my life. Of course, having kids is an 18 to life sentence. So, she just said, "Where's mama?" I hear the word "mama", because it's very echoey.
Margie Chuang 42:43
Mm hmm.
AJ Thomas 42:44
And that was the last three people before they were going to play the songs and whatnots and welcome you to swore in. I took the envelope and hearing her in my head, it was like, wow, this is the American dream. The realization for me was it was not for me. This was not for me, this is for everybody else that comes after this for me. And that helped it be easier for me to drop that off and honor the history of where I came from, feel the emotions that I was feeling on that day going, "I don't know if I even want to do this. Because this is a lot to give up. I know it's just an envelope of stuff. But it's literally my life these past 20 years". And then dropping it in there was really the symbolism of now you can start. Now it is for someone else. It's not for you.
But there were so many lessons that I have learned through that season of life going through that kind of culminates this image of that black box failure. Had I not dropped it in that black box, it would have been a failure. But I think for me, the reoccurring theme of failure because of experiencing that is, I'm always looking out for if you don't drop it in that black box and you don't say, "I don't know," and you don't say, "I screwed it up," or you prolong it and you cover it up, it just comes back to haunt you. And then you're back on this circle.
So, I tell that story as almost a symbolism and for me this is why I'm not afraid to fail. I'm not afraid to run into a wall. Sometimes I don't even know I'm running into a wall. Sometimes you're running and then you're like, "Yeah, this is great!" And then BOOM, the wall's right there. But that black box has been a really interesting symbolism for me to say it's okay. It's okay that all of that stuff happened in your past. It's okay that all of the things that were wrong about what happened during that season of your life lays a great foundation for something else for you to build upon. I think failure, people always say, "Oh, you build your foundations on failure". No, you build your foundations on what you learn from the failure, my friends.
And for me, it was everything that I had learned from all of those years that were: my parents had failed to get our green cards secure, the workers permit, failed marriage, gosh failed opportunity to realize the scholarship because I was not an actual resident of the United States, I would have had to pay out-of-state fees which was very expensive, failure of not being able to even realize the opportunities that would have been available to me while I was in high school, failure to lean into the relationship with my mom, who was really just trying to tell me like, "Hey, I just don't want to make life hard for you, but these are the things you should know," failure to fill out a FAFSA with your tax ID number versus your social security number. All of those things came wrapped up into that, right? So, that's kind of thinking about it was this one failure. I have so many, but the symbolism of dropping it into that box and giving yourself the permission to say, "Yeah, I did fail so that I can learn, build on top of what I learned,” and realizing that the dream I was after for so many years was never mine in the first place, was so humbling. And that's the story.
Margie Chuang 45:54
Thank you for sharing that. I teared up, even knowing a part of that story and I still teared up. Thank you very much for sharing that and for being so vulnerable in that experience.
So, I actually spoke to one of our mutual friends, who has also worked with you before, and I asked her what I should ask you about. And she suggested asking you, "What is your take on optimism? And is optimism natural? Or is it something that can be cultivated?"
AJ Thomas 46:20
Optimism. So, that's a really good question. I think optimism . . . I've always been seen as naturally very optimistic. I think people confuse optimism with energy, by the way. Yeah, the feedback I've gotten these last 20 years of school and work is, "She's so energetic!" Optimism, I think, can only come from a place where, at least for me, my own point of view, it comes from a place where you've cultivated not feeling optimistic.
I'll share another story on this - before I was married to Mike, I actually lived in my car for six months here in the Bay Area, stop people at 24 Hour Fitness and make friends with them just because I knew there were showers in there. And this is when I was working at T mobile and was starting out here. I think my optimism, personally, I don't think you're born with optimism or you're born with joy. You're born with wonder, you're born with hope, that there are so many things that are out there for you. And the older that you get, life beats it out to you. And if you don't let life beat it out of you, that's where optimism starts coming through. It's like, you know what, I'm going to keep going. Oh, I screwed that one up. Gotta keep going.
And I think optimism to me is probably, the definition to it is probably not what you would see in a dictionary. I think optimism is the outcome of being able to sit through some hard things and say, “I still have a choice”. There's still another way out there. So again, to the question, you are born with joy, you were born with hope, you were born with wonder and life beats that out of you. Those moments where you don't let that happen is actually where you cultivate that optimism. And it's crazy, because people would never know, because I'm so energetic, quote unquote, and optimistic, they're like, "She's I just had a great life!" It's like, "No, it's been pretty effed up".
Margie Chuang 48:07
Yeah, I'm 34 and I'm only just starting to unpack this. And actually, through the podcasts have really taken a hard look, let those feelings resurface and actually feel them and understand because people say the same thing about me, "You're very energetic, you're very excited". But actually, there are some really not so fantastic things that have happened, in the past even few years. But anyways, I didn't think of optimism and that way, thank you for sharing that.
As a female founder and you're building your business through the lens of being a woman, being a mom. What are some things that you think about, and we touched on it with the raising your daughter. What are some things you think about that empower women in the technology space, empower parents?
AJ Thomas 48:51
Yeah, again, you're going to hate me after saying this word, but it's a commun-team, it's a communi-team! It really is. Success and all of these things that people see, they are not often what they actually are, because your success is most often always built on a combination, a collective of other people's sacrifices that they've made, whether it's somebody stayed 30 minutes longer, so that you could finish your board presentation, even though they already had an appointment because somebody needed to watch your kid during that time. That's a small, tiny thing. But again, in the lens of sacrifice, right, people make those choices every day that help you somehow.
And what kind of helps me and what I've seen is number one, for those that are fortunate enough to have a partner in their life that supports them. My husband is absolutely amazing. And there are times where he has taken the brunt of the worst, darkest of myself and just looked at me and said, "Interesting". I get even more pissed when he does that. But, it is true. It is. I guess it is interesting - how? Why do you think it's interesting? And then he helps me unpack. He actually is the person that is my first counsel on things, he checks me on reality, he helps me see blind spots, helps shape the things that I don't see. And that's how I see like the communi-team, right? The aspect of that you are not alone in succeeding in the workplace, as people might think that is the case.
I honestly believe that I had a fantastic mentor and boss at the time, a couple of them that endorsed me and sponsored me when I didn't even know I was capable of doing whatever the heck they thought I could do. And part of it is as real as you can be, you attract the people that will really see you. And it doesn't feel forced. Me getting kicked out of HR by Paul Whitney was that sense of sponsorship from others. And also particularly rewarding when you're in that mid to late stage of your career where I'm navigating a little bit. And that mid stage is the ability for you to see others and sponsor them as well.
It's very important, like that's important in building, right? You may have been laying brick for the last 20-30 years, 15-20, whatever it is, but there's something about seeing somebody walking and seeing yourself or seeing a version of the pain that they're carrying that you're like, wow, that could be so much easier, and help them and sponsor them that is so motivating and rewarding also that I encourage.
And people are like, "I have nothing to give to others", haven't been laying brick for the last 15-20 years. And I actually am very inspired by the kids these days. I can't believe I'm saying, "kids these days". But, the young kids these days that are just like, you know what, I can't get a job right now I am $100,000 in debt, but I have a doctorate and I'm just going to try something. And the next couple questions leads them to something else again, but the opportunity to really see others and realize that you're part of a communi-team, for me, and my husband, my in laws, my kids, my parents, my siblings, really eear friends, you in one way or another are sponsoring me by seeing me carrying my brick and going, "Let me talk to you about that thing that you're building". So, I think that is really important when you're building is that you're aware that it's not just you building, people often mistake that's their thing. It's their story.
Margie Chuang 52:16
Mm hmm.
AJ Thomas 52:17
You're a collective of everyone that's poured into you.
Margie Chuang 52:20
Literally, up into the second that I was actually about to get on this call with you, my husband, he's my soundboard. And I texted him, I was like, "Where's my pep talk?" And so he video chatted with me. And he just said, "You can do this," and "Being nervous, being all these things is fine, everyone feels it, but you've done it before. So keep at it".
You are talking about where it's also about the ask too, AJ. And you'll be really surprised by who will respond with the call to action. Even if you barely know someone, what I'm guilty of is the fear that I build in my head, about what that person's response will be right? But it's even just the little things, it doesn't need to be this grand favor. You said it in your stories that I may not know this person very well, but I think they know someone who could help me and I'm just going to shoot them a text. And I don't think people realize how much the first ask is actually a very powerful thing to do. Because you will be so surprised whose response.
The second thing is the follow up, because everyone's life is busy. And I think one of the mistakes that I certainly make is thinking, "Oh, maybe they just don't want to be connected with me". But it's not about that. People's lives are busy, they may not have gotten your text, there's so many other things that are a part of that. The optimism and the follow through, everything that you've said during this episode is like all of that, and everyone's little things that make them special, will help you in your journey to wherever you need to be.
AJ Thomas 53:46
Yeah, absolutely.
I always think about this, like when people are in it for themselves, it's blatantly obvious. And my grandpa always said this. And it's stuck with me all of these years, because I remember him writing me a letter and mailing it to an actual 24 Hour Fitness because I had no mailing address. It's actually framed in my office, and he said, "I want you to be the most competitive person. And the thing that you have to learn as you go through life is that the person you're competing with is your last best self". And that has stuck with me, because when I'm not being my best, I'm like, "Ugh, Abe is in my head again, talking to me about running this race!" I think there's a certain sense of knowing that it's not about looking around you and getting ahead of everyone else around you. But, it's really looking internally and saying how can I help elevate everyone else around me because that's going to help me get to my best self. And I can only build on that.
That's why this communi-team aspect for me is really big, even in leadership building programs, initiatives. Being a senior leader in an organization, people don't have to report to you for you to help influence them and sponsor them and talk to them about their career or their development. That's not off limits, so long as you're helping inspire them to build whatever they're doing and you see them carrying that brick, you have that responsibility to help them see it through it. It doesn't matter if you know them or not, it's a way to build relationship in that communi-team. And you do it selflessly. Don't do it for anything else other than, "Hey, I see you, I think you could do this. And it might be interesting to do this". And then the next thing you know, they're coming to you going, "Hey, I see you doing this. Do you need some help? It comes full circle.
Margie Chuang 55:23
It does.
Let's talk about your family-team. And I know, we're winding down. Can you talk to me, when you have a family, when you become a parent, there are a lot of moving pieces, a lot of people, a lot of things to coordinate. And certainly, during this global pandemic, the kids are home with you. So, you're working from home, homing from work. How do you and your husband go about prioritizing? Do you have a plan? What does that plan look like?
AJ Thomas 55:48
So I have two words for that and it's, "we don't". We kind of just go with it. It's a little bit of an ebb and flow. It's a little bit of a rhythm. We don't necessarily have a routine, per se. I'm never one for routines anyway. But you know, I think what's been important is we do our thing in our spaces. I'm blessed with the opportunity to have my own office and not have to be sitting in the kitchen while everyone's running around doing their thing. Mike's got his own office as well. The kids have their own place where they're playing. Sometimes, my son's walking in here. I was on a conference call a couple months ago, where he walked in with no pants and the lightsaber. So, like stuff like that is just part of the norm.
Something that we did, that was pretty awesome that we're going to continue to do as a family is we actually took . . . I'm more of the four-day weekend vacationer than I am like the two weeks, gone to Tahiti, kind of person. We took four days, went up to Tahoe and just connected back with nature, away from technology. And that was a very fantastic reset, I think for both of us. We were actually looking each other in the eyes. And we're not looking at each other through devices. It's really hard. I don't have a formula for it. Nor do I have a plan. I just know that the one experiment that we did . . . and we're the family that goes to New York City, right in the middle of San Francisco, or London, Trafalgar Square, for vacation, and we went camping, rented a cabin and went to the lake, went kayaking, it was such a reset moment.
And we came back so reset that we're like, "When are we going to do that again?" And that becomes something you look forward to. But I'd be lying if I told you it was easy, and I had a plan. It's hard. Every day is a struggle. And I'm down to explore and discover new things. And I also have a lot of support, like my in-laws are absolutely amazing. They're there for us 200,000%. No one probably can define it more than that statement of, I love you 3000 than my in-laws. I get along with them. I always joke around and I say I'm their favorite daughter-in-law, even though I'm their only daughter-in-law, but it's hard. We don't do it perfectly.
Margie Chuang 57:44
I don't think any of us do it perfectly and perfect is sometimes a little bit boring. So, okay, you don't have a routine, but are there things that you do, maybe in the morning or at night, that keeps you sharp and thinking throughout the day, because you have to think on your feet a lot?
AJ Thomas 57:58
I have a personal membership to Master Class. It's a really awesome platform. Some people have yoga memberships and gym memberships, the muscle I work out the most is my brain. So, I'm flexing up here. Every night, I'll try my best to at least get 10 minutes in on a masterclass or an audible book that I've been paying attention to while I'm either brushing my teeth or something like that. Every morning, religiously, I wake up and at least read three different articles before I even eat my breakfast. I'm feeding my brain. Sometimes I don't even eat breakfast, but it's another topic. I'm always reading.
One thing I've gotten into that has been really awesome is not just business books, but reading fiction as well continue to keep my brain a little bit sharp. One of the books I'm reading right now is actually this book right here. It is called, "The Other Einstein" by Marie Benedict. And it's a novel about Einstein's wife and a lot of the things that she did to help him become successful that no one knows about. So, I read, I consume knowledge almost every single day before I wake up.
And then at night, I'm either listening to an audio book or something and then I just hang out with the kids. But I try to always make space for putting my brain in learning mode.
Margie Chuang 59:08
Yeah, absolutely. To piggyback on that, you do a lot of speaking engagements, you're on panels, you speak at work often. Is there anything that you do to prepare beforehand?
AJ Thomas 59:18
anything that I do to prepare? I guess I think about what outcome do I want out of this? How do I want to show up? I give myself a series of activating questions that I'm either validating or answering or invalidating while I'm going through it.
Margie Chuang 59:32
Sorry, can you give us some examples of your activating questions?
AJ Thomas 59:35
Yeah, the activating questions are like: What do I want out of this, as far as the outcome? How am I going to be adding value? What is the actual goal? Not only is it important what I want out of it. Am I aligned with what everyone else wants out of it as well? And then I'll always ask, is there something that I believe so strongly that I wouldn't be able to argue the other side of it?
I think that really helps me ground and center, especially at work where people are very passionate about the things that they're working on, the people they're working with, and sometimes you just have to let go and say, "You know what, go ahead and pursue that. We'll come back to it later". I've learned to have strong beliefs held loosely, if that makes sense. Yeah, give space for others to build on top of that. And so for me, a conversation or a panel or something is like a dance. I so appreciate you having notes for this session. But I tend to think about, "Okay, my brain can only handle three things". If there were three things, what would those things be that you'd want to talk about? How does that relate to the outcome? How does it align with everyone else's outcome? So, it's a series of unpacking and processing in my brain.
Margie Chuang 1:00:35
You're reminding me of Oprah right now, very Oprah-esque, having an intention before anything, so I appreciate that. Okay, to wrap up our episode, I'd love to do a fun rapid fire with you. Does that sound okay?
AJ Thomas 1:00:49
That sounds great.
Margie Chuang 1:00:50
You ready?
AJ Thomas 1:00:51
Yeah.
Margie Chuang 1:00:51 1:01:09
Are you a morning person or a night person?
AJ Thomas 1:00:54
Does dusk count? Probably more of a night person.
Margie Chuang 1:00:57
What would be your ideal office view: a cityscape, the beach, or the mountains?
AJ Thomas 1:01:02
The mountains. As long as I can see the city on the other side of it.
Margie Chuang 1:01:05
Okay, that's fair. What show have you binge watched and loved?
AJ Thomas 1:01:09
Oh, my gosh, Once Upon a Time on Netflix. My daughter and I are actually re-watching it because it's so good.
Margie Chuang 1:01:15
What book have you gifted the most or revisit often?
AJ Thomas 1:01:19
A book that I gifted the most? I'm always giving people books. I'm known as the book hoarder. It's a book called Think Wrong. I don't know who the authors are, because it's not actually a book that you read. It's a very nice visual book that kind of shows ways to think about things the wrong way, just to get your brain in another zone, so you can dispassionately assess things and then, Dare to Lead by Brené Brown. I've given that book out a lot. Like, that Brené, girl!
Margie Chuang 1:01:48
She's amazing. Speaking of Brené Brown and vulnerability, what are some things that you do in the moments where you're feeling nervous or fearful to calm those nerves?
AJ Thomas 1:02:01
So, I usually sweat when I get nervous and fearful. I fidget. I do the thing with my forefinger and my thumb and I just round and round, like a silent, graceful snapping.
Margie Chuang 1:02:10
What is the first thing you do when you're alone?
AJ Thomas 1:02:13
The first? Oh, gosh, I eat candy. And there's a difference between candy and chocolate, Margie, because people are like, "Oh, so like chocolate?" No, that's chocolate. That's why it's called chocolate. Candy is like a jolly rancher or Sour Patch Kids. My personal favorites, Zours, which is Sour Mike and Ike's.
Margie Chuang 1:02:31
I've never heard of that. Do you have a stash and then you just go for it?
AJ Thomas 1:02:34
I went to Amazon and bought a box of like 37 pack of Zours. And actually, it was gifted to me on Mother's Day,
Margie Chuang 1:02:41
Happy Mother's Day, it's your mother's day. You own it.
AJ Thomas 1:02:45
That's right, that's right. But I do brush my teeth. So I'm good, no cavities.
Margie Chuang 1:02:48
How have other women empowered you or inspired you to keep going?
AJ Thomas 1:02:54
Role modeling. And it's small things. It's not, oh, I went to go win a Nobel Prize and then they're my inspiration. It's more of how compassionate they are to other people when I know that they're going through it. And then the ability to just be okay with being awkward, because it gives me permission to be awkward too, because I am. When you're so vulnerable and you show up in such an authentic way, you give others permission to do it. That's what inspires me.
Margie Chuang 1:03:17
Perfect. One last question. Do you have any parting thoughts for the listener out there who is trying to build something or may build something one day?
AJ Thomas 1:03:25
Yeah, I would say discover, explore, and don't go through it so fast as you're building that you forget to soak in all the moments in between. And that's advice coming from someone who did not soak in all the moments in between. They're very rich in hindsight, but there's sometimes there's just power in going, "Wow, this is really happening." Journal it, write it down, revisit it, have somewhere where you're writing down, even your stream of consciousness of that moment, celebrate the little thing, whether you're getting funding, or you just secured that domain, or you just got approved on that business loan, or you shipped your first product . . . write down all of those moments. We document our lives on Instagram, but we don't as women, at least my experience, we don't actually take the time to discover, explore and just be in the moment when those things happen. I think it's very important.
Margie Chuang 1:04:19
Absolutely. AJ, thank you so much for being so candid, generous and open with your experiences, for bringing your whole self, your intention, and for inspiring others to do the same. I really appreciate you and appreciate all that you are.
AJ Thomas 1:04:35
Thanks, Margie. You are absolutely amazing. Thanks for lifting voices of others who build out there. You're an absolute inspiration.
Margie Chuang 1:04:44
Hi, everyone! Thank you so much for tuning in. Links to everything we discussed are in the show notes on foundedbywomen.com. You can follow AJ on Twitter @ItsAJThomas, that's I-T-S-A-J-T-H-O-M-A-S or visit her website at itsajthomas.com. And if you have a moment, I would love and really appreciate it if you could leave a rating and review on iTunes, it helps us to get more amazing guests on the show and grow the podcast. You can find the show notes and more interviews with inspirational women building inspirational things on foundedbywomen.com. Until next time, keep building what brings you joy!
Return to show notes for Episode #003.